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How the Hawks Get Better

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MERPER said on 2 hours ago:

 I can't say I am any more sold on Trouba or Klefbom helping this defensive corps than I am Carlson so it's all about price both in salary (Carlson) or in compensation (trades for the other two guys).

To be honest, if none of these guys can be had for cheap (money or players), I wouldn't mind adding an Alexei Emelin or Luca Sbisa kinda guy.

You know as well as I do Trouba and Carlson are very different types of D-men MERP........

Carlson is an impact player offensively plain and simple and will command big money for a fairly long time. His talent level deserves top tier $$$ but it's hard to get past the fact that he had 2/3 of a bone removed from his ankle last summer and he said it feels like he's skating on a piece of leather now. If health is no factor,I believe there's a good chance he could easily live up to his next deal but I see a bit of a gamble.

Jacob Trouba turned 24 a month ago and he already has 322 games in the league,he has a .39 points per game avg and has never been a minus player on a team that hasn't always had the goal differential they have this year. He plays more of a stay at home style and has snarl to spare. He's also been caught up in a situation where the Jets are getting solid play from Buff and Meyers,both big righties. This has resulted in Trouba either playing his off side or reduced minutes when the team's healthy. I think he's a player who could easily flourish in a bigger role and he probably doesn't get it in the Peg.

It'll take 3.3-4M for the Jets to qualify Trouba and I have to think he'll be lookin' for more than that,if he's not moved,an offer sheet wouldn't shock me.

 

GO HAWKS!!!!! 

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With the cap increase, Trouba will get 6-6.5 for 8 years. I don’t see him not. Chevy did the right thing in keeping him when he requested a trade. Now he can trade him at his will!!!

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Big-T said on 1 minute ago:

With the cap increase, Trouba will get 6-6.5 for 8 years. I don’t see him not. Chevy did the right thing in keeping him when he requested a trade. Now he can trade him at his will!!!

Last summer was a tough situation with Trouba up there and Chevy did indeed handle it well. Trouba felt playing his off side in order to get top four minutes would adversely impact his performance and was willing to hold out to make that point. It could have become a bad situation for the team but they became a cohesive,competive unit all over the ice instead. Major kudos to Chevy and Maurice!

It isn't even a money issue with Enstrom's pending departure for the Jets,it's still an issue of the player wanting to play his natural position........we'll make room on the right side for ya big fella!LOL!

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!

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hsbob said on 1 minute ago:

Last summer was a tough situation with Trouba up there and Chevy did indeed handle it well. Trouba felt playing his off side in order to get top four minutes would adversely impact his performance and was willing to hold out to make that point. It could have become a bad situation for the team but they became a cohesive,competive unit all over the ice instead. Major kudos to Chevy and Maurice!

It isn't even a money issue with Enstrom's pending departure for the Jets,it's still an issue of the player wanting to play his natural position........we'll make room on the right side for ya big fella!LOL!

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!

I can’t say enough awesome things about Maurice. I know him half arsed. Everytime I see him, he always says “I remember the face but not the name”. I had a nice chat with him at the draft in Columbus when Kane was taken. I asked him why Tallon was so grumpy, and he said “Dale is a great hockey mind, and sometimes those guys come across as grumpy mainly because their focused” he said look at Torts? Burke? We had a good laugh! 

But id take Trouba in a Western minute. I do love American players, just not the smaller ones Stan goes with. That’s why realistically we should target Tkachuk in this draft!!!

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Big-T said on 7 minutes ago:

I can’t say enough awesome things about Maurice. I know him half arsed. Everytime I see him, he always says “I remember the face but not the name”. I had a nice chat with him at the draft in Columbus when Kane was taken. I asked him why Tallon was so grumpy, and he said “Dale is a great hockey mind, and sometimes those guys come across as grumpy mainly because their focused” he said look at Torts? Burke? We had a good laugh! 

But id take Trouba in a Western minute. I do love American players, just not the smaller ones Stan goes with. That’s why realistically we should target Tkachuk in this draft!!!

Maurice also seems to have the perfect demeanor behind a NHL bench.....doesn't he? Chevy's had some high picks but has he ever taken advantage of em,a quality net minder at pick #130......talk about helping a team! Laine,Scheifele,Ehlers,Trouba,Hellebuyck,Connor,Morrissey and Copp.......are you F'n kidding me!

From what I understand,the 19yro,6'7" 228lb D-man from Waterloo ON they took with their 1st pick in '16' is making quite the impact with Kitchener also.

Getting usefull players like Tyler Meyers and Joel Armia back from Buffalo in the Kane/Bogosian trade pays dividends too and the Statsny acquisition might really be huge for them! 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!!

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hsbob said on 27 minutes ago:

Maurice also seems to have the perfect demeanor behind a NHL bench.....doesn't he? Chevy's had some high picks but has he ever taken advantage of em,a quality net minder at pick #130......talk about helping a team! Laine,Scheifele,Ehlers,Trouba,Hellebuyck,Connor,Morrissey and Copp.......are you F'n kidding me!

From what I understand,the 19yro,6'7" 228lb D-man from Waterloo ON they took with their 1st pick in '16' is making quite the impact with Kitchener also.

Getting usefull players like Tyler Meyers and Joel Armia back from Buffalo in the Kane/Bogosian trade pays dividends too and the Statsny acquisition might really be huge for them! 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!!

Hahahahaha, I know Logan Stanley, he is a big boy. He was my Windsor Spitfires property from the beginning, he helped us win a Memorial Cup last spring. I posted Video of him hoisting the Cup. He’s gonna be a good one, but don’t be surprised if it takes him a few more years. But ya, Chevy has hit so many times, in such a short period of time. In like 4 years he’s hit a lot and the guys he’s gotten are not small by any means. If our guys were fast like advertised, it’d be a bit brighter. Chevys guys are fast and huge, plus Chevy has done this with an internal salary cap. It’s not like he had total autonomy to spend to the cap ceiling. Their arena only holds 15,800. So they’re not raking in huge bucks like many would think. Basically, Chevy is a baller on a budget!!!

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To OP :

A ) make Kane, Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook, Crawford young again.

or

B ) fire SB, start rebuild and wait until 2023.

Edited by Modry-Jazyk

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iknowpuck said on 8 hours ago:

Where has SB drafted from over the past several years?  Success has it’s challenges.  What are you realistically expecting from those positions?

Obviously you aren’t going to get a Crosby or a Kane or a McDavid but you can get some pretty good hockey players. Especially with the number of picks Stan had accumulated in his fire sales! 

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midnite200 said on 4 hours ago:

Obviously you aren’t going to get a Crosby or a Kane or a McDavid but you can get some pretty good hockey players. Especially with the number of picks Stan had accumulated in his fire sales! 

Let's be fair here...SB has been drafting during the most successful years of the organIzation.  Compare just his first pick each year...and what position they were drafted from...to others before him.  Last 30 years (finishing with my guy JR).  I italicized and bolded top 10 picks.

SB: 

2017 - 29th - Jokiharju

2016 - 39th - D-cat

2015 - 54th - Knott

2014 - 20th - Schmaltz

2013 - 30th - Hartman

2012 - 18th - Teravainen

2011 - 18th - McNeil

2010 - 24th - Hayes

Except for McNeil, I think there are some "pretty good hockey players" on that list.

Before SB: 

2009 - 28th - Olsen

2008 - 11th - Beach

2007 - 1st - Kane

2006 - 3rd - Toews

2005 - 7th - Skille

2004 - 3rd - Barker

2003 - 14th - Seabrook

2002 - 21st - Babchuk

2001 - 9th - Ruutu

2000 - 10th - Yakubov

1999 - 23rd - McCarthy

1998 - 8th - Bell

1997 - 13th - Cleary

1996 - 31st - Royer

1995 - 19th - Nabokov

1994 - 14th - Moreau

1993 - 24th - Lecompte

1992 - 12th - Krivokrasov

1991 - 22nd - McAmmond

1990 - 16th - Dykhuis

1989 - 6th - Bennett

1988 - 8th - Roenick

Neither list looks "great" but in comparison SB hasn't drafted all that poorly with his first pick in each draft...especially considering their positions.

Out of the 9 top 10 picks between 1988 - 2009, I would say 3 hit...and those were Kaner 1st overall, JT 3rd overall and JR 8th overall.

Unfortunately...but fortunately...SB will be in a position in the top 10 this year...result of a failed season.  He hasn't drafted from there before...a cost of success.

 

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Trade Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Anisimov, Murphy and Crawford but only if you get 1rd pick and NHL player(for any traded core player) and don't get retainted salary nor bad contract(for more than 1 year).

Fire SB and Q. Q because core is getting slower and we need tactics to they need. SB because we need cheap but good contracts, appear to impossible to him.

 

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What do you all think about Mark Stone. He's unrestricted at the end of the year. He will probably get paid on this next contract in the $6-$8 mill range. I like him and he would be a nice addition, just not sure we should spend that much on a non center. Thoughts? 

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Make Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Kane to play like they give a s.. t. Or that too much to ask. Plus everything from above. 

And as a real leaders they should stop dividing locker room and start leading  young players by example. 

Edited by irmaks

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hsbob said on On 3/16/2018 at 4:31 PM:

You know as well as I do Trouba and Carlson are very different types of D-men MERP........

Carlson is an impact player offensively plain and simple and will command big money for a fairly long time. His talent level deserves top tier $$$ but it's hard to get past the fact that he had 2/3 of a bone removed from his ankle last summer and he said it feels like he's skating on a piece of leather now. If health is no factor,I believe there's a good chance he could easily live up to his next deal but I see a bit of a gamble.

Jacob Trouba turned 24 a month ago and he already has 322 games in the league,he has a .39 points per game avg and has never been a minus player on a team that hasn't always had the goal differential they have this year. He plays more of a stay at home style and has snarl to spare. He's also been caught up in a situation where the Jets are getting solid play from Buff and Meyers,both big righties. This has resulted in Trouba either playing his off side or reduced minutes when the team's healthy. I think he's a player who could easily flourish in a bigger role and he probably doesn't get it in the Peg.

It'll take 3.3-4M for the Jets to qualify Trouba and I have to think he'll be lookin' for more than that,if he's not moved,an offer sheet wouldn't shock me.

 

GO HAWKS!!!!! 

Hey Bob, good to hear from you... 1 thing... 2 different players 

Carlson is the soon-to-be free agent from the Capitals... he's a more defensive-minded guy.

Karlsson is the one from the Senators who is the offensive gem with the bone removed.

My original post here mentioned signing Carlson as a free agent but T suggested he'd get $8-9 million per year with the cap going up. 

T then brought up possibly trading for Karlsson since Ottawa was trying to ship him at the trade deadline. He is signed through next season at a $6.5 million cap hit. It'll take a really nice package to land him and that, of course, is only worth it if they sign him long-term and this Karlsson will demand way more than the other Carlson for the reasons you mention about his amazing offensive abilities.

If they can land Trouba at a reasonable rate, fine, but I wouldn't overpay him.

Edited by MERPER
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The team will not be very good for a few years no matter who is signed or acquired. 

There are far too many holes.  The Hawks have become among the worst teams in the entire league.   It will likely get worse before better.

This year, only one core player has missed real time - Crawford.   Imagine how brutal the situation would get if a second core player (ie Kane or Keith) also went down at the same time.  This is a likely scenario moving forward as the players age and become more brittle.

I would not bother signing any big name UFA to any long term contract at this point.   It is time for a full on bottoms up rebuild.

Use the available cap space to take on another team's bad contracts in return for picks and prospects.  Sign willing UFAs to short term contracts then recycle them for more picks at trade deadline.   Rinse and repeat.

I see at least two more dreadful years after this one, and perhaps more if Bowman is still around and tries a panic patch job.  This rebuild is going to take some time.

 

Edited by mvr

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MERPER said on 1 hour ago:

Hey Bob, good to hear from you... 1 thing... 2 different players 

Carlson is the soon-to-be free agent from the Capitals... he's a more defensive-minded guy.

Karlsson is the one from the Senators who is the offensive gem with the bone removed.

My original post here mentioned signing Carlson as a free agent but T suggested he'd get $8-9 million per year with the cap going up. 

T then brought up possibly trading for Karlsson since Ottawa was trying to ship him at the trade deadline. He is signed through next season at a $6.5 million cap hit. It'll take a really nice package to land him and that, of course, is only worth it if they sign him long-term and this Karlsson will demand way more than the other Carlson for the reasons you mention about his amazing offensive abilities.

If they can land Trouba at a reasonable rate, fine, but I wouldn't overpay him.

There's so many Swede D-men these days,it's hard to keep track......especially when their names are nearly the same!LOL! 

John Carlson(with a C and only one S) is actually having quite a year himself with the Caps,he's cheaper and no ankle bone issue like Karlsson(with a K and two S's).

It's hard to believe Eric Karlsson is still only 27yrso,I thought he was at least 30.

Trouba's probably a pipe dream because he'll take big assets back along with a big cap hit but I believe the Jets do deal him.

 

GO HAWKS!!!!! 

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mvr said on 19 minutes ago:

The team will not be very good for a few years no matter who is signed or acquired. 

There are far too many holes.  The Hawks have become among the worst teams in the entire league.   It will likely get worse before better.

This year, only one core player has missed real time - Crawford.   Imagine how brutal the situation would get if a second core player (ie Kane or Keith) also went down at the same time.  This is a likely scenario moving forward as the players age and become more brittle.

I would not bother signing any big name UFA to any long term contract at this point.   It is time for a full on bottoms up rebuild.

Use the available cap space to take on another team's bad contracts in return for picks and prospects.  Sign willing UFAs to short term contracts then recycle them for more picks at trade deadline.   Rinse and repeat.

I see at least two more dreadful years after this one, and perhaps more if Bowman is still around and tries a panic patch job.  This rebuild is going to take some time.

 

That's a bit dramatic,you don't think they're playin' for a pick?

A healthy Crawford instead of a bunch of nit-wits in net and somebody who knows what the hell to do with the available cap space this summer and things could look a lot different. If the Kings and Bruins can bounce back with players that are older than ours then so can the Hawks with the right leadership.

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!

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A healthy Crawford might have been able to get this team into the playoffs this year if all the others had remained engaged and played full out throughout the season.  

But the team would not have lasted much more than a playoff round regardless if they somehow snuck in.   It will only get worse from here.

The best two defenders on this team are into their early to mid thirties, and they have played a lot of hockey.   The rest of the defence is just awful.   Trading Hjalmarsson was a huge mistake, even if the player had started to decline.   Murphy is a work in progress, but his upside might never be better than a third pairing guy.   I like Rutta as a number six and Gustafsson could be ok as a number seven. But that's not really enough, is it?

To make the defence competitive again will require at least two top end guys.   Even one would be hard to find.    It looks like the team might need a number one goalie.   I don't see any available.     There is a lack of depth at the centre position (as always), and an obvious need for some legitimate secondary scorers.   This will cost more money or prospects.   Clearly, Bowman can't buy or trade his way out of this.  

I would be more optimistic for a quick turnaround if the prospect pool looked encouraging.   But the Hockey News rates the team as 29th best (out of 31).   Most of what is in the system are all of the same type -  very small and not at all physical.

A patch job with some big name free agent signings/trades might fill some of the holes above and make the team somewhat competitive again, but it will not make them a real contender - not without an influx of grade A talent.   The core five is too old now to carry the team on its backs.  

Why delay the inevitable?   The rebuild needs to be done properly from the bottoms up.

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Pertti said on 14 hours ago:

Trade Toews, Keith, Seabrook, Anisimov, Murphy and Crawford but only if you get 1rd pick and NHL player(for any traded core player) and don't get retainted salary nor bad contract(for more than 1 year).

Fire SB and Q. Q because core is getting slower and we need tactics to they need. SB because we need cheap but good contracts, appear to impossible to him.

 

these overpaid and underperforming players have all negative trade value, so to get rid of their ***** contracts, Hawks would have offer their 1st round pick as sweetener not that they would get any.

Edited by Modry-Jazyk
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Modry-Jazyk said on 9 hours ago:

these overpaid and underperforming players have all negative trade value, so to get rid of their ***** contracts, Hawks would have offer their 1st round pick as sweetener not that they would get any.

This is likely true.

What's worse - the sticky Hossa LTIR contact situation.   The controversy is far from over, according to a recent report.   Rival team executives remain furious that the Hawks were able to avoid being penalized for cap circumvention.   The topic is again on the agenda at the next set of general manager meetings.

I strongly suspect Hossa has negative trade value as well.

Edited by mvr

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mvr said on 3 hours ago:

This is likely true.

What's worse - the sticky Hossa LTIR contact situation.   The controversy is far from over, according to a recent report.   Rival team executives remain furious that the Hawks were able to avoid being penalized for cap circumvention.   The topic is again on the agenda at the next set of general manager meetings.

I strongly suspect Hossa has negative trade value as well.

of course, as any other player with frontloaded contract in his last years.But his cap is not against cap, so it's only off-season management problem, not cap issue.I am afraid, that CC could join Hossa on LTIR next October so there will be two.But again, it's "issue" only for a Day 1 in the season.Also it doesnt now matter as Hawks are not playoffs team in next season bc. they have 50 million unmovable cap fixed in couple of players on decline or simply underperforming.

Edited by Modry-Jazyk

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mvr said on 2 hours ago:

This is likely true.

What's worse - the sticky Hossa LTIR contact situation.   The controversy is far from over, according to a recent report.   Rival team executives remain furious that the Hawks were able to avoid being penalized for cap circumvention.   The topic is again on the agenda at the next set of general manager meetings.

I strongly suspect Hossa has negative trade value as well.

The only point I'll make to you and others who say this is the end of the line is this and I'll make it as cordially as I can....

What was Claude Giroux's trade value last year @29 after a 14gl 58pt -15 82 game campaign? By far his worst in seven years and he played em all so injuries played no part.

What is Claude Giroux's trade value now that he'll double that goal total and approach 90pts with a +17? 

Was Kopitar the worst 10.5M spent in the league with 12 goals and a -10 last year? How bout now with 30 and a +15? Also the player's worst season in years and he played 76gms so injury played little role here as well.

The Kings were rumored to be considering a Dustin Brown buy-out last year after a 14gl,-4 season @32 but considerations are different now that's he's contributing 20+gls again and a +23 suggests his defensive,agitating game has also returned with gusto @33.

Aren't 14 and 12 goal seasons for two of the games best centers far worse than anything we've seen from Jonathan Toews?

Is Patrick Kane still a 30gl,point per game player with anything resembling the proper linemates?

Is there a chance a 25yro power forward two years removed from a 30+ goal season just got caught up in a bad situation and returns to form?

Is there a chance a kid who can't order a beer yet improves on his mid 20's goal scoring rookie campaign?

Is there a chance that another kid who refuses to shoot improves on his 20 goal season and learns what passes NOT to attempt?

Boston's 41yro Norris winner is having his best +/- season in six years,our 34yro Norris winner can't do the same at 7 years his junior?

We can agree to disagree on Murphy being nothing more than a bottom pair D-man,IMO he's been the team's best D-man for some time now.

Can Vinny,Hayden or Highmore become solid contributors in the big league? I admit that 2 of the 3 will have to in order for the team to become competitive again but we do see flashes.

Is an amount of cap space that this team hasn't seen in years enough to fill a few of the holes that we all see this summer?

Can a good trade or two make a difference?

I realize that the answers to these questions won't necessarily be the ones I want to hear but a return to competitiveness isn't at all far fetched IMO.

Making assessments or assumptions off of the play we've seen since the New Year started might be unnecessary panic but there's certainly a bunch of issues to address. 

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!! 

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What I don’t understand is this. And I’m not picking on Highmore here cuz of his number. Dave Bolland was a MASSIVE scoring machine in jrs. It wasn’t transpiring to the pro game, so he became a pest and stayed in the league at all costs. Why can’t Highmore or some other kid use this time to just pisss off the competition? We have no agitators and or guys that draw penalties. Shaw did the same damn thing. Do we have all pre-Madonnas in our system? I just don’t get how some of these kids won’t try a defensive role or shut down role to remain in the league. William Karlsson did this with Columbus, now he’s got a shot and he’s killing it. Frolik came here as a supposed scorer. He was a Selke winner in my book. We need to establish role players outta all this. Can’t have this mishmash of a lineup every night!!!

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Bob -   As you know, I have always defended the core guys and would never trade any of them.    There has been far too much change already.

But there is a time to be realistic about what he have here.   Beyond the aging core guys, I see value in Schmaltz, Debrincat and Hayden, and that's about it.  None will likely be elite talents.    Forsling might turn out to be ok.   The other prospects are years away.   There is nothing exciting in Rockford.

 I am a big proponent of the idea that small changes can and do make a big difference.   This general manager has never tinkered or experimented.   Until Bowman goes, I will remain pessimistic about the direction of the team.

With a new leader this summer, I see no reason why this team can't be competitive in three years.   But change needs to happen at the top first.

Edited by mvr

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Big-T said on 1 hour ago:

What I don’t understand is this. And I’m not picking on Highmore here cuz of his number. Dave Bolland was a MASSIVE scoring machine in jrs. It wasn’t transpiring to the pro game, so he became a pest and stayed in the league at all costs. Why can’t Highmore or some other kid use this time to just pisss off the competition? We have no agitators and or guys that draw penalties. Shaw did the same damn thing. Do we have all pre-Madonnas in our system? I just don’t get how some of these kids won’t try a defensive role or shut down role to remain in the league. William Karlsson did this with Columbus, now he’s got a shot and he’s killing it. Frolik came here as a supposed scorer. He was a Selke winner in my book. We need to establish role players outta all this. Can’t have this mishmash of a lineup every night!!!

I do wonder what has been going on in Rockford.   Guys like Hayden and Knott should be learning how to play centre.  

Svedberg never developed into the physical guy we thought he could be.

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Modry-Jazyk said on 16 hours ago:

these overpaid and underperforming players have all negative trade value, so to get rid of their ***** contracts, Hawks would have offer their 1st round pick as sweetener not that they would get any.

I know and because they probably won't get traded we need coach who makes tactics for slower team.

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