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Tomc8481 said on 7 hours ago:

No kidding you don't do stats. If you did you'd see what a garbage argument you have. +/- is not a good measure of possession. Corsi and Fenwick are. Look them up some time. Toews is a possession monster, especially this last season with Saad. They didn't chase the puck, they owned the damn thing. All that time with the puck and no points to show because... DING DING DING DING DING! Poor shooting and shot selection!

You may also be disappointed to know that Panik's game didn't drop off when he was traded to Phoenix, so if you really believe Toews was platooning his game you are mistaken. He actually improved his shot by a decent margin once there and put up slightly better numbers in slightly less games.

And if Panik in any way, shape or form affected Toews' ability to show leadership, quite frankly that says more negative about Toews than it does about Panik.

HA!!!! Too funny !!!! Tell me who's game would drop playing for Phoenix? As with the bird your stats can only rise from the ashes. :lol:

 

And funny thing about stats you show one to try to prove a point but then need 3-4-5 more to try and defend it and then need 6-7-8 more to defend that. Thanks but no thanks I don't watch pre games nor post games. I watch the games then the encores the next day then try to watch as many NHL games that were blacked out the night before but shown free the next day. 

 

And I never said Panik had anything to do with the drop in Toews leadership that's on him 100%. I've been saying for over a year his leadership is almost non existent and that has nothing to do with Panik but I have not seen a drop off in his play. Now whatever these corsi and fenwick things are and you say they are amazing and they owned the damn puck? Then Toews is doing his job and playing well. His role is to be the top line CHECKING center see that is primary. Scoring and offense is secondary and you are trying to argue that his secondary role has dropped and that is the main reason for his drop in play and the teams woes? And as I mentioned to Lord if you watched the games you seen a lot his players not in position which left Toews with just throwing it at the net. 

 

Toews the last 2 years has been the victim of Q's blender which he could only fill with bargain bin discards and not so ripe fruit and with that has kept up the success of his primary role according to your stats that say they had possession which means the other team didn't. That's his job just as Kane's is to create offense. Now when I bring up Kane's secondary role of playing defense and say it is abysmal I am damned to hell.  

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Creature1958 said on 1 hour ago:

You say Also-rans and Panik, a down Hossa and also -rans come on quit being fixated on the one bad pixel and look at the big picture. Toews has not been playing with top 6 forwards to help offensively and had to pick it up defensively. Again I don't go by stats as other people like to do I go by what I see on the ice. Who was there to help Toews? Were they in position to receive a pass or after seeing his poor options just decided to throw it at the net and see what happens. See I've seen that a lot him just trying to throw it at the net because that was the best option. 

 

I have said over and over I have not seen his play drop as far as what his role is and that is the top line checking center. Bring up those stats those are the important ones you bring up the secondary ones and even with those they still are not bad as far as points. So you fixate on a bad pixel called shooting percentage and the big picture means nothing. I've also said that just watching I've seen his leadership drop more than his game has. I have not seen Captain Serious in over a year but more of a Captain Invisible. Iv'e seen it on the ice,the bench and in his interviews have you seen it also or do you need stats to help make that decision ? And really Panik was traded after 37 games in 2018? Can I say that it really didn't matter because it was after CC went down and the team already packed it in or would that ruin your argument? 

So goals/points are secondary stats?  Sure...whatever helps you stick to your flawed narrative.:rolleyes:

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LordKOTL said on 14 minutes ago:

So goals/points are secondary stats?  Sure...whatever helps you stick to your flawed narrative.:rolleyes:

They are when it's not your primary role. You don't cry about Kane not playing defensively right? His job is to score goals not to go back checking. 

 

See how primary and secondary work :wacko:

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Creature1958 said on 16 minutes ago:

They are when it's not your primary role. You don't cry about Kane not playing defensively right? His job is to score goals not to go back checking. 

 

See how primary and secondary work :wacko:

...so let me get this straight:  Goals and points are a secondary stat to your number. one. center?

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Creature1958 said on 1 hour ago:

HA!!!! Too funny !!!! Tell me who's game would drop playing for Phoenix? As with the bird your stats can only rise from the ashes. :lol:

 

And funny thing about stats you show one to try to prove a point but then need 3-4-5 more to try and defend it and then need 6-7-8 more to defend that. Thanks but no thanks I don't watch pre games nor post games. I watch the games then the encores the next day then try to watch as many NHL games that were blacked out the night before but shown free the next day. 

 

And I never said Panik had anything to do with the drop in Toews leadership that's on him 100%. I've been saying for over a year his leadership is almost non existent and that has nothing to do with Panik but I have not seen a drop off in his play. Now whatever these corsi and fenwick things are and you say they are amazing and they owned the damn puck? Then Toews is doing his job and playing well. His role is to be the top line CHECKING center see that is primary. Scoring and offense is secondary and you are trying to argue that his secondary role has dropped and that is the main reason for his drop in play and the teams woes? And as I mentioned to Lord if you watched the games you seen a lot his players not in position which left Toews with just throwing it at the net. 

 

Toews the last 2 years has been the victim of Q's blender which he could only fill with bargain bin discards and not so ripe fruit and with that has kept up the success of his primary role according to your stats that say they had possession which means the other team didn't. That's his job just as Kane's is to create offense. Now when I bring up Kane's secondary role of playing defense and say it is abysmal I am damned to hell.  

If you are,it probably happened back in the 70's and 80's.....LOL!

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!

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Couple things here:

If you think all Toews needs to do is simply "fix his shot," I'd disagree. It wasn't just his shot that was a problem, but his overall game in every zone/along the boards and his diminished speed.

I agree that having Panik -- and the revolving carousel of wingers on his line -- certainly didn't do Toews any favors. I'm not saying that Toews shouldn't be blamed for his own sub-par play, but to ignore his line-mates themselves is also misguided. There was zero chemistry with any of his wingers, and yes, that will affect your own play.

+/- is as weak a statistic as corsi/fenwick on which to base anything.

The end.

Edited by Granada

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LordKOTL said on 1 hour ago:

...so let me get this straight:  Goals and points are a secondary stat to your number. one. center?

At this point in time YES. Are you forgetting that when Toews was gathering those numbers you like to use they actually had a checking line to ease his duties? They don't have that today so his major role is to be the shut down line and has been the last few years. Hard to really generate offense when you are busy trying to stop the opponents top scoring line. Would you feel better if I just agree his point production just sucks and the only way to fix it is to ignore playing defensively and just start playing offensively? Again I don't fixate on a bad pixel it takes away from the big picture.

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Granada said on 1 hour ago:

Couple things here:

If you think all Toews needs to do is simply "fix his shot," I'd disagree. It wasn't just his shot that was a problem, but his overall game in every zone/along the boards and his diminished speed.

I agree that having Panik -- and the revolving carousel of wingers on his line -- certainly didn't do Toews any favors. I'm not saying that Toews shouldn't be blamed for his own sub-par play, but to ignore his line-mates themselves is also misguided. There was zero chemistry with any of his wingers, and yes, that will affect your own play.

+/- is as weak a statistic as corsi/fenwick on which to base anything.

The end.

To fix Toew's ills they need to find a checking line that will ease his role of today. During the Cup wins they relied on the 3rd line to help in that department. 

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Creature1958 said on Just now:

At this point in time YES. Are you forgetting that when Toews was gathering those numbers you like to use they actually had a checking line to ease his duties? They don't have that today so his major role is to be the shut down line and has been the last few years. Hard to really generate offense when you are busy trying to stop the opponents top scoring line. Would you feel better if I just agree his point production just sucks and the only way to fix it is to ignore playing defensively and just start playing offensively? Again I don't fixate on a bad pixel it takes away from the big picture.

If Toews was the only checking line, sure.  That explains 2018...but not 2017.

In 2017 you had Kruger and Hossa anchoring the 3rd line. Kruger is a true checking-line center and Hossa was the teams best defensive FWD AINEC.  How much more of a checking line could you get?

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LordKOTL said on 1 minute ago:

If Toews was the only checking line, sure.  That explains 2018...but not 2017.

In 2017 you had Kruger and Hossa anchoring the 3rd line. Kruger is a true checking-line center and Hossa was the teams best defensive FWD AINEC.  How much more of a checking line could you get?

And then was Toews playing with any top 6 forwards?  And was Kruger and Hossa really the checking line or was it more to help Hossa and the pain of the skin disorder?  Moving Hossa down made the Toews line even weaker.  You are so fixated on a bad pixel and are trying to tell me that if JT just fixes the bad pixel all would be good with his play? STOP LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE AND FOCUS ON THIS PIXEL........SEE THIS PIXEL? YEAH THIS ONE RIGHT HERE. THAT"S THE PROBLEM !!!!!!!  

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Blackhawks were 30th in hits ....only team that played softer was the Hurricanes .....Darling fire or frying pan ...That being said Carolina lead the league in Face off % few other stats ....Stats like Bks Ms Gva Tka ...the hawks near mid pack or lower.....speaks for itself 

ok sedition ....How is i Kaners job to be checking behind his own goal ......out of Kaners 18 hits ....i remember a few in that area .......

now if anyone wants to help Q and SB out .....do a season checking chart where hits occured ......  seeing that = what are you doing with your ice time .....

no offense back to Ovi ....

those deep checks against defensemen ...game changers 

disclaimer Senators .........had a lot of hits almost 2000 ........rage against ghosts of sedition ........?  Being poison ......effects everybody ......

Edited by PuckProphet

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Never said Panik had anything to do with Toews leadership?

Creature1958 said on 22 hours ago:

Go back to your chart and look at his +/- since Panik was on his line. Not very good. What I don't see and I don't do stats is how much ice time they spent in the offensive zone. When you are so busy playing D and then picking up the slack for Panik you get numbers like that. I didn't like how he showed leadership last year it was almost non existent not his play because playing with Panik is going to affect anybody's play from their shot to lacing their skates. 

Sure looks like it to me, but whatever you want to tell yourself.

Granada said on 1 hour ago:

Couple things here:

If you think all Toews needs to do is simply "fix his shot," I'd disagree. It wasn't just his shot that was a problem, but his overall game in every zone/along the boards and his diminished speed.

I agree that having Panik -- and the revolving carousel of wingers on his line -- certainly didn't do Toews any favors. I'm not saying that Toews shouldn't be blamed for his own sub-par play, but to ignore his line-mates themselves is also misguided. There was zero chemistry with any of his wingers, and yes, that will affect your own play.

+/- is as weak a statistic as corsi/fenwick on which to base anything.

The end.

I never said it was only thing Toews needs to do. My point has been that Toews needs to own his poor play and that it's incorrect to simply pass the buck and point the finger at his former linemates. His shot just happens to be a great example of something specific that he needs to work on and also is largely independent of whoever is on his line.

Stats are tools and nothing more. On their own, they don't paint a complete picture. But neither does the "Blackhawk's message board fan's eye test". 

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Tomc8481 said on 3 minutes ago:

 

I never said it was only thing Toews needs to do. My point has been that Toews needs to own his poor play and that it's incorrect to simply pass the buck and point the finger at his former linemates. His shot just happens to be a great example of something specific that he needs to work on and also is largely independent of whoever is on his line.

Stats are tools and nothing more. On their own, they don't paint a complete picture. But neither does the "Blackhawk's message board fan's eye test". 

He does own his poor play.

Where did I say the eye test paints a complete picture? I said +/- and corsi are weak stats to base anything on, because they are. Stats are well and dandy, but when they're the only thing people use, as opposed to watching the actual games themselves, then they're a problem. You can't solely rely on stats without watching the majority of the games; that doesn't paint a complete picture either.

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Tomc8481 said on 33 minutes ago:

Never said Panik had anything to do with Toews leadership?

Sure looks like it to me, but whatever you want to tell yourself.

I never said it was only thing Toews needs to do. My point has been that Toews needs to own his poor play and that it's incorrect to simply pass the buck and point the finger at his former linemates. His shot just happens to be a great example of something specific that he needs to work on and also is largely independent of whoever is on his line.

Stats are tools and nothing more. On their own, they don't paint a complete picture. But neither does the "Blackhawk's message board fan's eye test". 

Sorry should have use "but" instead of "because" my mistake I'll make sure to triple read my posts so as not to confuse you which seems quite easy. 

 

And again you keep pointing to his offensive production which again is not his primary role at this point it's the defensive side of his stats or play that I would have a major concern about if they were to be as bad as you are saying about his offensive drop off. I believe his offensive play will get better but come on get him some players that belong with him. Now it is me that is pointing a finger at his linemates not him and I've never heard him complain nor should he. But I would like to see how another top line center would fare playing with what Toews has the last 2 years and see what their stats look like. His shot will also improve I believe if and when he has other options to help instead of just throw the puck on net and change because nothing is there. Saad getting out of his funk and being Saad again will help but he needs one more player not picked from the bargain bin. Then it's time to address that leadership thing that has gone MIA.

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Granada said on 45 minutes ago:

He does own his poor play.

Where did I say the eye test paints a complete picture? I said +/- and corsi are weak stats to base anything on, because they are. Stats are well and dandy, but when they're the only thing people use, as opposed to watching the actual games themselves, then they're a problem. You can't solely rely on stats without watching the majority of the games; that doesn't paint a complete picture either.

I think he is talking to me Granada so maybe ease up on the reins their friend :lol:

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Granada said on 2 hours ago:

He does own his poor play.

Where did I say the eye test paints a complete picture? I said +/- and corsi are weak stats to base anything on, because they are. Stats are well and dandy, but when they're the only thing people use, as opposed to watching the actual games themselves, then they're a problem. You can't solely rely on stats without watching the majority of the games; that doesn't paint a complete picture either.

This is quite literally what I just said. Agree to agree with me for a change.

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Creature1958 said on 1 hour ago:

Sorry should have use "but" instead of "because" my mistake I'll make sure to triple read my posts so as not to confuse you which seems quite easy.

And again you keep pointing to his offensive production which again is not his primary role at this point it's the defensive side of his stats or play that I would have a major concern about if they were to be as bad as you are saying about his offensive drop off. I believe his offensive play will get better but come on get him some players that belong with him. Now it is me that is pointing a finger at his linemates not him and I've never heard him complain nor should he. But I would like to see how another top line center would fare playing with what Toews has the last 2 years and see what their stats look like. His shot will also improve I believe if and when he has other options to help instead of just throw the puck on net and change because nothing is there. Saad getting out of his funk and being Saad again will help but he needs one more player not picked from the bargain bin. Then it's time to address that leadership thing that has gone MIA.

If you get words wrong and it happens to change the meaning of what you're trying to bring across, that's not on me. All I can do is read what you put out there. Incoherence tends to lead to confusion.

I have been staying on point with the argument I have been trying to make, that Toews needs to step up his offensive game and he can start by working on his shot. You disagree, and that's great and all and I'm very proud of you but honestly I don't give enough of a **** to continue this anymore. This stopped being a discussion some time ago.

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Creature1958 said on On 6/20/2018 at 8:44 AM:

And then was Toews playing with any top 6 forwards?  And was Kruger and Hossa really the checking line or was it more to help Hossa and the pain of the skin disorder?  Moving Hossa down made the Toews line even weaker.  You are so fixated on a bad pixel and are trying to tell me that if JT just fixes the bad pixel all would be good with his play? STOP LOOKING AT THE BIG PICTURE AND FOCUS ON THIS PIXEL........SEE THIS PIXEL? YEAH THIS ONE RIGHT HERE. THAT"S THE PROBLEM !!!!!!!  

Whatever dude.  Your narrative is trite, boring, dated, and wrong.  If you honestly think the only thing wrong with Toews is the guys he plays with you obviously haven't been paying attention. 

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Taterman said on 29 minutes ago:

Well, 30 hours away from draft time.

     *taps foot impatiently

Tap hawder boy!!!

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