Biscuit_In_The_Basket

04/20/2017 CDQF Blackhawks vs Preds Game 4 GDT

695 posts in this topic

hawkinmontreal said on 20 minutes ago:

Creature has been advocating for the departure of Pat Kane for a while, dont bother argueing with him about it, but ask him how the Breadman did this year and last in the playoffs.

Panarin was non existent just like Kane. And no I have not been advocating for Kane's departure maybe you should brush up on reading comprehension. I posted ONCE about agreeing with another poster about trading Kane to Buffalo to keep Panarin because he was a better 2 way player than Kane and the team would get a great return in players also helping the salary cap but then the crap starts. I've never said Kane is a bad player just not a 2 way player and I'll debate with anyone about that. Kane was a better player before Panarin arrived now it's just a regular season circus act to amuse fans. Not me Kane needs 2 players willing to get in front of the net for him to be successful in the playoffs and these last 2 years shows that.

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midnite200 said on 3 minutes ago:

Exactly right Creature but the problem to me is Stan should of been smart enough to get those players for the core instead getting a bunch of figure skaters with speed who simply cower when the men come out at playoff time!

Hey friend I believe they have those players but Q likes the circus acts. Just look at the PP To have the likes of Toews,Kane,Panarin,Keith,Seabs,Hossa out there teams should not want to take a penalty. But now they know just clog up the middle of the ice and all is good ...Q never even tried to put net crashers in there.

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Creature1958 said on 12 minutes ago:

Hey friend I believe they have those players but Q likes the circus acts. Just look at the PP To have the likes of Toews,Kane,Panarin,Keith,Seabs,Hossa out there teams should not want to take a penalty. But now they know just clog up the middle of the ice and all is good ...Q never even tried to put net crashers in there.

What? You don't like our PP?

 

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midnite200 said on 21 minutes ago:

I agree whole heartily except for 2 things. First the Preds didn't look like they had 10 guys on the ice it was more like the Hawks had 2 or 3! Secondly after the 2 years of Panarin and Anisimov not showing up for the playoffs to me they should be the 1st to go along with a bunch of the younger guys who simply do not have the stuff to even be playoff support players! One of the crew on Sportsnet said it best...the Hawks simply had NO secondary players! 

I seen a bigger flaw..........the system. It became a bigger sideshow because of the defensive depth. The forwards no longer came back to help as they were looking for those stretch passes to give them the odd man rushes It wasn't working. Then the look first to pass instead of shooting it on net was another. Maybe different players would have made a difference but I just don't think so.

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jacksalmon said on 3 hours ago:

I agree with your points, but all the details and the cons attached to each possible move demonstrate a team in its death throes.  Now, fans will know what is was like to be the Detroit Red Wings after 2009.  Pretty good, but never even close to good enough.  At the same time, they had a great run with many great games and they are great players, but all good things come to an end.  I am curious to see if they will ever win a Cup again in my lifetime.  There are no guarantees at this point. 

Not sure how old you are, but I don't think it's that dire unless the management reverts to a $Bill/Pullford state.
IMHO:

Worst case: the 'hawks are done, I think over the next 7 years (the longest any of Keith, Seabs, Toews, or Kane is signed is through 2024), assuming worst case, the 'hawks are 2nd-round exit max and just missed also-ran, giving them middle 1st round picks. As this starts to taper down we fall lower and lower.

I 100% think by the time Keith and Seabs are done, they're *done*.  Toews or Kane *might* get another deal but it will be no more than 3-4% of the total cap--like 2-3.5M AAV in 2017 cap dollars.  After those get flushed down, I think maybe 3-4 more years of low mediocrity, by then, we should be getting in the top picks.  Give it 2-3 years from there for seasoning and you're looking at maybe 13-15 years before the 'hawks should be in a position make a serious push--again, that's *worst* case.  Keep in mind near the end of all this, unless someone gets a contract too long for too much, the 'hawks should have plenty of cap dollars.

Again, assuming "worst case", if in the next 2-3 years it looks like the 'hawks are really on a decline, I thin Stan (or whomever is the GM) has to start prepping for that.  Unless T+K+K+S (longest signed and most expensive), they should be looking for short-termers and expecting a lot of turnover unless someone really sticks. 

But I think even if this is the beginning of the end and it is *worst case*, it would be on the onus of the GM/Owner to make sure that, at the end of the T/K/K/S deals that they are positioned to be able to get, and keep, the new deep core members  Now, if one of those 4 is movable before the end, or Prongers themselves, it will help.  But still, we had 3 cups from them (more than Hull/Mikita), and now we have to ride it out if there really is no salvaging them, but I don't foresee it to be another 49-year ordeal unless the upper management take a major step back.

tylerJ2888 said on 1 hour ago:

Toews, Kane, and Keith are still elite players despite this series so dumping them for garbage or a bag of pucks won't happen. If SB were to move any of these players he would definitely wait for the right pieces that would help us. Taking a bad contract wouldn't help us. Anyone would love these guys and realize that they would need to give up a lot to get them. I think something was wrong with Keith. His head was not in this series. Toews. His lack of coordination and ability to stay on his feet makes me believe he MIGHT have a concussion or something. He was not his normal self at all, but like another poster said earlier he was still getting in those dirty areas battling so it wasn't for a lack of effort but he's not a 10.5M guy to just show effort. Kane was the only productive player on his line so maybe by game 3 and 4 they just focused on him plus I think the lack of productivity this series had a lot to do with AA's abysmal efforts. 

T+K+K's value in the here-and-now declined sharply.  My point was not about dumping them for a used puck bag--my point was that (a) you're not going to get a player or combo of players that equal their peak skill level--more like their current, lower perceived level, and (b) you're likely not going to get it for less cap.  Either you lose cap and lose conglomerate skill, or you're paying as-much and probably still getting closer to their current perceived skill.

My other point was, before this postseason, if Winnipeg called and asking about Toews, Stan would flip it over to the fax machine and give them an earful of handshake noise.  Now, he'd probably listen just in case they do something insane like offer Toews for Scheiffle, Trouba, and Petan (like that would ever happen).

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Creature1958 said on 2 hours ago:

Panarin was non existent just like Kane. And no I have not been advocating for Kane's departure maybe you should brush up on reading comprehension. I posted ONCE about agreeing with another poster about trading Kane to Buffalo to keep Panarin because he was a better 2 way player than Kane and the team would get a great return in players also helping the salary cap but then the crap starts. I've never said Kane is a bad player just not a 2 way player and I'll debate with anyone about that. Kane was a better player before Panarin arrived now it's just a regular season circus act to amuse fans. Not me Kane needs 2 players willing to get in front of the net for him to be successful in the playoffs and these last 2 years shows that.

Back pedaling on Kane again, my reading comprehension is just fine thank you. Not worth debating,  everybody on these boards no where you stand with Kaner. 

You and I have been down this road before.

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hawkinmontreal said on 2 minutes ago:

Back pedaling on Kane again, my reading comprehension is just fine thank you. Not worth debating,  everybody on these boards no where you stand with Kaner. 

You and I have been down this road before.

I'm not back pedaling on anything. I said I would trade Kane over Panarin in a post based on their 2 way play. You have NEVER even tried to debate me on that EVER. I will stand by my statement and also that Kane needs better players around him to be his best because Kane does not make players better by himself. I've pretty much kept my debate on this with Puck Jim he's way better at it.

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LordKOTL said on 1 hour ago:

T+K+K's value in the here-and-now declined sharply.  My point was not about dumping them for a used puck bag--my point was that (a) you're not going to get a player or combo of players that equal their peak skill level--more like their current, lower perceived level, and (b) you're likely not going to get it for less cap.  Either you lose cap and lose conglomerate skill, or you're paying as-much and probably still getting closer to their current perceived skill.

My other point was, before this postseason, if Winnipeg called and asking about Toews, Stan would flip it over to the fax machine and give them an earful of handshake noise.  Now, he'd probably listen just in case they do something insane like offer Toews for Scheiffle, Trouba, and Petan (like that would ever happen).

I see where you are coming from now that you broke it down. Good insight. Kane I feel hasn't come out of his peak potential yet. He still scored 36G this season (2nd most in his career), but legacy comes from production in the playoffs and all reigns must come to an end including his. The others I think are already in the decline. 

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Creature1958 said on 1 hour ago:

I'm not back pedaling on anything. I said I would trade Kane over Panarin in a post based on their 2 way play. You have NEVER even tried to debate me on that EVER. I will stand by my statement and also that Kane needs better players around him to be his best because Kane does not make players better by himself. I've pretty much kept my debate on this with Puck Jim he's way better at it.

Kudos to puck jim then. 

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Creature1958 said on 3 hours ago:

I seen a bigger flaw..........the system. It became a bigger sideshow because of the defensive depth. The forwards no longer came back to help as they were looking for those stretch passes to give them the odd man rushes It wasn't working. Then the look first to pass instead of shooting it on net was another. Maybe different players would have made a difference but I just don't think so.

Looking to pass while giving up good scoring chances was huge although some of that may have been caused by nobody other than Toews going to the net for the most part. A lot of guys really should have paid admission because they certainly didn't look like they wanted to play! You are right though the stretch pass was overused and pretty predictable.

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midnite200 said on 2 minutes ago:

Looking to pass while giving up good scoring chances was huge although some of that may have been caused by nobody other than Toews going to the net for the most part. A lot of guys really should have paid admission because they certainly didn't look like they wanted to play! You are right though the stretch pass was overused and pretty predictable.

I'm going to say that it happened more this year because of the defensive depth. For whatever reason the forwards were less interested in coming back to help defensively and I gave Kane a lot of crap because of it. But it was the whole team. Kane could hang back and wait for those passes if his other 2 linemates were deep helping out. Not the case these last 2 years but it expanded to the rest of the team. Nobody was coming back but waiting to get an odd man rush. It worked in years past but at least 2 forwards were back to help it's gone and did not show up this year. Was it the players or Q trying to make it work?

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LordKOTL said on 3 hours ago:

Not sure how old you are, but I don't think it's that dire unless the management reverts to a $Bill/Pullford state.
IMHO:

Worst case: the 'hawks are done, I think over the next 7 years (the longest any of Keith, Seabs, Toews, or Kane is signed is through 2024), assuming worst case, the 'hawks are 2nd-round exit max and just missed also-ran, giving them middle 1st round picks. As this starts to taper down we fall lower and lower.

I 100% think by the time Keith and Seabs are done, they're *done*.  Toews or Kane *might* get another deal but it will be no more than 3-4% of the total cap--like 2-3.5M AAV in 2017 cap dollars.  After those get flushed down, I think maybe 3-4 more years of low mediocrity, by then, we should be getting in the top picks.  Give it 2-3 years from there for seasoning and you're looking at maybe 13-15 years before the 'hawks should be in a position make a serious push--again, that's *worst* case.  Keep in mind near the end of all this, unless someone gets a contract too long for too much, the 'hawks should have plenty of cap dollars.

Again, assuming "worst case", if in the next 2-3 years it looks like the 'hawks are really on a decline, I thin Stan (or whomever is the GM) has to start prepping for that.  Unless T+K+K+S (longest signed and most expensive), they should be looking for short-termers and expecting a lot of turnover unless someone really sticks. 

But I think even if this is the beginning of the end and it is *worst case*, it would be on the onus of the GM/Owner to make sure that, at the end of the T/K/K/S deals that they are positioned to be able to get, and keep, the new deep core members  Now, if one of those 4 is movable before the end, or Prongers themselves, it will help.  But still, we had 3 cups from them (more than Hull/Mikita), and now we have to ride it out if there really is no salvaging them, but I don't foresee it to be another 49-year ordeal unless the upper management take a major step back.

T+K+K's value in the here-and-now declined sharply.  My point was not about dumping them for a used puck bag--my point was that (a) you're not going to get a player or combo of players that equal their peak skill level--more like their current, lower perceived level, and (b) you're likely not going to get it for less cap.  Either you lose cap and lose conglomerate skill, or you're paying as-much and probably still getting closer to their current perceived skill.

My other point was, before this postseason, if Winnipeg called and asking about Toews, Stan would flip it over to the fax machine and give them an earful of handshake noise.  Now, he'd probably listen just in case they do something insane like offer Toews for Scheiffle, Trouba, and Petan (like that would ever happen).

I really think a lot of people are totally missing on what happened here! Hockey is a team game and nobody including Gretzky himself can win games by himself. All the superstars this game has ever had all had pretty good supporting casts to help them out. The total lack of heart, effort, grit and desire displayed by this years supporting cast was deplorable.  2 or 3 guys actually playing hockey at any 1 time while the rest watched will never win you any hockey games, especially in the playoffs. Not saying the stars had their best moments out there but then again it's pretty easy for 5 skaters to shut down 2 or 3!

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midnite200 said on 2 minutes ago:

I really think a lot of people are totally missing on what happened here! Hockey is a team game and nobody including Gretzky himself can win games by himself. All the superstars this game has ever had all had pretty good supporting casts to help them out. The total lack of heart, effort, grit and desire displayed by this years supporting cast was deplorable.  2 or 3 guys actually playing hockey at any 1 time while the rest watched will never win you any hockey games, especially in the playoffs. Not saying the stars had their best moments out there but then again it's pretty easy for 5 skaters to shut down 2 or 3!

Supporting cast? 13 goals in 4 playoff games is not because of the supporting cast.

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Creature1958 said on 4 minutes ago:

I'm going to say that it happened more this year because of the defensive depth. For whatever reason the forwards were less interested in coming back to help defensively and I gave Kane a lot of crap because of it. But it was the whole team. Kane could hang back and wait for those passes if his other 2 linemates were deep helping out. Not the case these last 2 years but it expanded to the rest of the team. Nobody was coming back but waiting to get an odd man rush. It worked in years past but at least 2 forwards were back to help it's gone and did not show up this year. Was it the players or Q trying to make it work?

That's true but at the same time most of the guys who should of been grinding it out along the boards and in the corners were totally avoiding those confrontations!  It's much easier and safer to wait for a clearing pass...Kane was not the only forward guilty of this...guys like Kero, Hartman, Schmaltz and such were especially disappointing in this respect!

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Creature1958 said on 2 minutes ago:

Supporting cast? 13 goals in 4 playoff games is not because of the supporting cast.

Again...pretty easy for 5 skaters to jump all over 2 or 3 actually working while the rest watched! It makes everyone look bad!

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midnite200 said on 1 minute ago:

That's true but at the same time most of the guys who should of been grinding it out along the boards and in the corners were totally avoiding those confrontations!  It's much easier and safer to wait for a clearing pass...Kane was not the only forward guilty of this...guys like Kero, Hartman, Schmaltz and such were especially disappointing in this respect!

And again these players are gritty and would go into the corners. Why didn't they? I'll tell you. Because it was what they were told. Q sets the system it's what he wanted and they listened because if not they would sit and Q didn't care if he put 22 or Desi in to teach a lesson.

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midnite200 said on 1 minute ago:

Again...pretty easy for 5 skaters to jump all over 2 or 3 actually working while the rest watched! It makes everyone look bad!

But that was not allowed in the past. Why was it this year? This was Q's tinkering of his system and it failed now the players take the blame. Every NHL player can hit every player can check but not with this team..poke check first.

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hawkinmontreal said on 35 minutes ago:

Kudos to puck jim then. 

Let's then talk about Kane and his skills but I'll tell you this. Denis Savard could play in today's NHL where Kane could not during the 80's and Savard would probably beat everyone of Kane's stats.

 

 

Oh and Savard was traded

Edited by Creature1958
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Biscuit_In_The_Basket said on 4 hours ago:

 

(See bolded) - They already did and a huuuuuuuuuge amount

My statement that the Hawks will not get their money's worth from the remaining amounts to be paid on the Toews and Kane contracts referred to what the team will get in return going forward.  I already said that if the remaining years on their contracts are to pay them back for jobs well done in the past, so be it,, but that is no way to set the team up for future performance, if those two continue to play in the playoffs as they have the last 2 years.   I think that 20 goals for Toews and 30-35 for Kane in the regular season with one apiece in the playoffs ain't worth $21 million, regardless of what else they do in the games.  I know others will disagree, but I've said my piece and others can say theirs. 

Of course, one can also argue that they were rewarded for what they did in the past and who cares about future returns because they put fans in the seats.  But, for how long can that go on, if there are nor future returns that approximate what was accomplished in the past.  I'll still contend that if they had been paid less money, the Hawks would have iced better teams last year and this year.  Personally, I think there is a very valid argument that states that paying them $9 million, or even slightly less, would have rewarded them for past work and for future performance, given that this is a lot of money and they get endorsements also.  How much do they need?  As much as they want ?  If that is the norm, then the team gets early exits in the playoffs and so be it.    There is team performance to think about also in my world.  If Bowman thought he could ice really good teams after shelling $21 mill to those two and another $25 to $30 million to Seabrook, Keith, Crawford, Hossa et al, then I think he was wrong.  But, I guess he had his reasons.  I just don't think they panned out very well. 

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midnite200 said on On 4/21/2017 at 3:18 PM:

I really think a lot of people are totally missing on what happened here! Hockey is a team game and nobody including Gretzky himself can win games by himself. All the superstars this game has ever had all had pretty good supporting casts to help them out. The total lack of heart, effort, grit and desire displayed by this years supporting cast was deplorable.  2 or 3 guys actually playing hockey at any 1 time while the rest watched will never win you any hockey games, especially in the playoffs. Not saying the stars had their best moments out there but then again it's pretty easy for 5 skaters to shut down 2 or 3!

Everything you say about the supporting cast also is 100% true for the skater core.  Only Hossa+Kruger really showed any heart, grit, or determination--and let's not forget it what the supporting cast that broke our goalless drought.

The difference is you maybe expect a few bad moments from the supporting cast--if you didn't they'd be highly paid as part of the core.  What you don't expect is guys like Toews & Keith bailing on plays & Kane being outshustled, especially since they made their careers by *not* bailing on plays and outhustling their opponents.

The Whole Team Sucked.

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