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hawkinmontreal said on 20 hours ago:

Be careful with being negative around here you might be annointed with " the hawks dont owe you anything, or you have a distain for certain players, or your a doom and gloomer" according to some posters, and they know who they are

If you have a problem with something I said,feel free to quote the exact post or pm me. I am not anonymous.

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!

 

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LordKOTL said on 7 hours ago:

Let them annoint away.  This is the internet and for all the posturing, preening, trolling, koolaid-drinking, meatheading, kumbayaing, doom-and-glooming, et al it pays to remember that we're all blackhawks fans and that if we were actually good at all of our predictions, playing, and armchair GM'ing we'd be actually working for the Blackhawks in some capacity instead of posting on their message board. :D

Excuse you Lord but I was the single fist bumping catalyst that propelled Patrick Kane to MVP status and I also am currently 3-0 in my fantasy league. So... I think that equals a hop skip and jump away from Stan's status. :P

Edited by ATNBlackhawksFan
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ATNBlackhawksFan said on 16 hours ago:

Excuse you Lord but I was the single fist bumping catalyst that propelled Patrick Kane to MVP status and I also am currently 3-0 in my fantasy league. So... I think that equals a hop skip and jump away from Stan's status. :P

So?  Since I was able to take the remnants of the Elven army and defeat the Orcish hordes on the Plains of Lordemon and bring peace to the entire realm--without having the Sword of a Thousand Truths, summoning a Planeswalker, or stacking Sunder Armor, that means I'm just a bad spray tan and a ferret stapled to the top of my head from being a viable presidential candidate :P.

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LordKOTL said on 12 hours ago:

So?  Since I was able to take the remnants of the Elven army and defeat the Orcish hordes on the Plains of Lordemon and bring peace to the entire realm--without having the Sword of a Thousand Truths, summoning a Planeswalker, or stacking Sunder Armor, that means I'm just a bad spray tan and a ferret stapled to the top of my head from being a viable presidential candidate :P.

:lol: Well you've Trumped me. 

Edited by ATNBlackhawksFan
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ATNBlackhawksFan said on On 11/4/2016 at 9:13 PM:

:lol: Well you've Trumped me. 

You get bonus points for the double pun. :D

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Outstanding dialogue you two!

As for the Toews Thread:

Toews has to change his game.  He has the talent to do so.  Even including Hoss (who's lost five years), the Hawks still have just five legit Top 6 forwards.  Oh, they can get away with a guy like Panik in my humble opinion, but nobody would state with any emphasis that he's a Top 6 forward.  Kaner needs to have another forward who is playing in space, not parked in front of the net which Tazer's still doing and guys like Panik do as well.  Panik has no choice; he has to play that way.  Tazer has a choice.  Now, as for the yungins' such as Schmaltz and Hino, maybe, but they're just not guys you can trust on Line #1 as yet. 

As "The Hawk" would say, "Tazer, get on out there!"

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This is the list of wingers who played with Toews since 15/16 until now.It's 11 different wingers in about ~100 games.Missing chemistry with anyone in the team, even with Kane who looks bad while Hossa like elite winger again after gets away from the Top line.

Hossa
Kane
Shaw
Tichonov
Teraveinen
Ladd
Garbut
Dano
Panik
Motte
Schmaltz

All these LW's are bottom forwards/rookies not elite wingers, but I don't believe that 10.5M superstar coupled with another 7.9M-10.5M elite RW need ANOTHER elite L-winger to be effective, guy like Anisimov is good enough to center the best line in the team with two elite wingers around him.

Edited by Modry-Jazyk
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So Kane is playing not that great and its Toews fault? And Hossa is playing better and it was Toews fault he played badly last season? 

Could it just be that both our superstars are off to a sluggish start. It happens. it happened to Crosby, Getzlaf, Stamkos, - just to name a few in recent memories. They haven't played on a line together outside of playoffs for a long time. Maybe its a chemistry thing? Maybe its a well, its only 20 games in and it will get better thing. 

I get that Toews needs to step it up. He absolutely does - but he isn't the reason Kane is having a slow start. 

 

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I am pretty sure, that if Hossa and Kane would swap lines, Hoss would go down and Kane would be again great.It's not about 20 games ATN, it's about 20 games plus the entire last season.Yes, Hossa was bad entire last season plus in the games 1-4 against Blues.Then he was moved to Kuger/Ladd and scored three goals in three games 5-7 ... I don't know what Kane could do differently but I believe Toews could do more than play Anisimov style (grind for the puck and then park in front of the net and wait for rebounds).

Edited by Modry-Jazyk

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GigECJ said on On 11/19/2016 at 8:22 AM:

Outstanding dialogue you two!

As for the Toews Thread:

Toews has to change his game.  He has the talent to do so.  Even including Hoss (who's lost five years), the Hawks still have just five legit Top 6 forwards.  Oh, they can get away with a guy like Panik in my humble opinion, but nobody would state with any emphasis that he's a Top 6 forward.  Kaner needs to have another forward who is playing in space, not parked in front of the net which Tazer's still doing and guys like Panik do as well.  Panik has no choice; he has to play that way.  Tazer has a choice.  Now, as for the yungins' such as Schmaltz and Hino, maybe, but they're just not guys you can trust on Line #1 as yet. 

As "The Hawk" would say, "Tazer, get on out there!"

This I fully agree with.  Toews has (or as fooled us all into believing he has) a high HockeyIQ.  Even if he isn't the same guy that and undress the Avalanche singlehandedly if he plays to his current abilities he should still be quite effective.  We do see glimpses of that.  Granted, we saw Arkhipov last night.

 

And no ATN; Kane sucking is not Toews' fault.  Kane sucking is the fault of Kane and he doesn't really get a pass for last night.  No one does; the whole team sucked.

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So, what is Toews' problem?  Call it a sluggish start, as some do, but sluggish starts have a cause, like Injury, lack of motivation, no linemates, loss of speed, loss of skill.  Or, I guess, sometimes s--- happens.  In any event, I thought the guy was supposed to come back all rested and ready to go.  So far, no sign of being a highly paid superstar.  But, fortunately, for him, he can still save the season if he still has his skills and speed.  It would be good to see him do it. 

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Modry-Jazyk said on 2 hours ago:

I am pretty sure, that if Hossa and Kane would swap lines, Hoss would go down and Kane would be again great.It's not about 20 games ATN, it's about 20 games plus the entire last season.Yes, Hossa was bad entire last season plus in the games 1-4 against Blues.Then he was moved to Kuger/Ladd and scored three goals in three games 5-7 ... I don't know what Kane could do differently but I believe Toews could do more than play Anisimov style (grind for the puck and then park in front of the net and wait for rebounds).

So what is the reason for Toews 28 goals the last 3 seasons? This kid doesn't go out there and go on the ice and score as his only job. He plays on the PP,  he kills penalties, he plays both ends of the ice, he takes draws and he is asked to score and assist and do other things. 

I thought Kane could have any linemates and prosper. Handzus, Versteeg, Richards, etc. The issue was why does Toews need elite when Kane doesn't. 

Is Toews grinding and winning puck battles and getting to the front of the net because that is what Q is telling him to do? Who else is going to do it? Not Kane. PAK line was a huge offensive asset and a defensive liability last season. 

So a future HHOF playing on a 3rd line against other 3rd liners and prospering is Toews fault? 

So Kane isn't doing that well, but he's fine and doesn't really need to do anything differently - and Toews should play totally different? Gotcha. 

 

 

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jacksalmon said on 1 hour ago:

So, what is Toews' problem?  Call it a sluggish start, as some do, but sluggish starts have a cause, like Injury, lack of motivation, no linemates, loss of speed, loss of skill.  Or, I guess, sometimes s--- happens.  In any event, I thought the guy was supposed to come back all rested and ready to go.  So far, no sign of being a highly paid superstar.  But, fortunately, for him, he can still save the season if he still has his skills and speed.  It would be good to see him do it. 

What was Crosby's problem last season? Or Getzlafs or a number of other people who have consistently done well and had slow starts? It happens. But now the kid has lost all his speed and skill and doesn't care? :rolleyes: Maybe his speed and skill are the same places Hoss's was last season - cause most people had written him off after he had a bad entire season - not just the first 20 games. 

 

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ATNBlackhawksFan said on 1 hour ago:

What was Crosby's problem last season? Or Getzlafs or a number of other people who have consistently done well and had slow starts? It happens. But now the kid has lost all his speed and skill and doesn't care? :rolleyes: Maybe his speed and skill are the same places Hoss's was last season - cause most people had written him off after he had a bad entire season - not just the first 20 games. 

 

Look, I never said that he has lost his speed and skill and doesn't care.  So, don't attribute words to me that I did not write.  I only said those were among the possible explanations that might explain his "sluggish start" as you call it.  I don't know what is going on, but, currently, he sucks offensively.  If you think he is playing well offensively, then you are entitled to your opinion.  When his line gets shown up by the Hartmann/Hinostroza line, that is concerning. 

As I said in my post, Toews still has the rest of the season to recover and show that his current problems are merely a "sluggish start" and that he still has his speed and skills.  I would like to see him do it.  But, I would be a fool to say that currently he is playing well offensively.  He is not being paid $10.5 million to merely win faceoffs.  He is supposed to score some goals, too. 

I'll be the first to admit that I can get down on players that don't perform to expectations, especially when they make $10.5 million and cause the team to lose support players.  Maybe you are right and it is just a slow start and he will come back roaring back.  I am not saying that he won't.  I am merely saying that currently his game is hard to watch and it has been most of this year, so far.  What am I supposed to say?  That he has been great and has been living up to expectations?  What do you think he would say about his own game?  You know he would criticize his performance.  So, if he would criticize himself for not performing well, what is wrong with me or anyone else on this board doing the same?  I don't care how many Cups he has won, he is not playing well now offensively.   If and when he turns that around, I will be just as assertive in my praise as I am in my criticism. 

Edited by jacksalmon
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Toews consistently lines up against the other team's best players.

The job description of the first and second line is entirely different for this team.  

The second line should score more.   They do not do much heavy lifting.

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The number or rookies on the third and fourth line mean that the coaching staff have to use Toews in more checking situations than ever before.

The young players have to be carefully spotted.  As the season progresses, I suspect Toews will be inserted into more scoring situations, and his numbers will increase accordingly.  

He is presently on the second unit powerplay (and often only seeing 30-40 seconds total ice-time during a two minute powerplay).

Patrick Sharp's numbers decreased dramatically when moved away from a scoring line to a checking role in 2015.   His game had not deteriorated.   His role had changed.

 

 

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I agree MVR. Toews is leading the league in face offs taken, and for our benefit, faceoff %. He's taking all these draws due to no one else being able to win a draw, and or cover their assignments defensively. 

 

A lot of the time, even in the offensive zone, wingers need to tie up their man to gain control of the puck, or "box them out". We have too many rookies that don't do this, as their thinking offense first. 

 

So like MVR has pointed out, Toews is just being used in another capacity!!!

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I'm going to try to tread lightly here....as I really don't want to appear to be "lurking" around the boards...and jumping in to defend Toews because I'm over-reacting.

Over the first 7 games the team was treading water at 3-3-1. Toews was barely apparent with 2 assists....hard to argue he was playing poorly if you base a total game entirely on the score sheet.

However, over the last 13 games the record stands at 10-2-1. 

The 2 outright losses over that 13 game span were by an aggregate score of 9-0. This means Toews didn't do anything on the score sheet to help. It also means nobody else did either. I think we can all agree those were team losses. Toews at his very best would probably not change the outcomes.

Does he need to play better?...sure he does. But the 10 points he's scored over the past 13 games indicates to me he's not entirely the black hole being depicted. 

 

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I don't talk about Toews overall, which includes PPG, SH play, winning FO's, three Cups, HOF, retired number, leadership, locker room etc., I talk only about Toews'  standart 5 on 5 line and long time issues of this line and how could be possible to fix it.... Nice FO% nor 3 Cups in 6 years doesn't make this line look better.I think only Toews is the key and not eleven different wingers who failed there in past 100 games.In last seven games Toews line stats are : Toews 0+2, Kane 1+2. Schmaltz/Panik 0+1.

Edited by Modry-Jazyk

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Icaddiedforstosh said on 28 minutes ago:

I'm going to try to tread lightly here....as I really don't want to appear to be "lurking" around the boards...and jumping in to defend Toews because I'm over-reacting.

Over the first 7 games the team was treading water at 3-3-1. Toews was barely apparent with 2 assists....hard to argue he was playing poorly if you base a total game entirely on the score sheet.

However, over the last 13 games the record stands at 10-2-1. 

The 2 outright losses over that 13 game span were by an aggregate score of 9-0. This means Toews didn't do anything on the score sheet to help. It also means nobody else did either. I think we can all agree those were team losses. Toews at his very best would probably not change the outcomes.

Does he need to play better?...sure he does. But the 10 points he's scored over the past 13 games indicates to me he's not entirely the black hole being depicted. 

 

Fair enough and I appreciate your "treading lightly".  I mean it.  My big squawk about Toews is his lack of goal scoring and the lack of creating scoring opportunities when playing with Kane.  If he being asked to do other things for the team and the coach and he don't mind the lack of scoring, then I am unaware of that and should not be critical of the lack of scoring.. 

As a very visible player, I was simply expecting more scoring; or, at the very least, more scoring threats.  As I said earlier, the Hartmann/Hinostroza line was far more threatening last night than the Kane/Toews line.  There is something off about that which is not simply explained by the fact that Toews' line gets the first d pairing and Hartmann's get the third.  Aren't Toews and Kane supposed to be able to counter first d pairings?  But, again, if the brass does not expect Toews to be scoring or setting up Kane because he is being asked to do other things, then I should not either.  At some point, maybe they will tell him to open up. 

Edited by jacksalmon

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mvr said on 3 hours ago:

Toews consistently lines up against the other team's best players.

The job description of the first and second line is entirely different for this team.  

The second line should score more.   They do not do much heavy lifting.

 

it's not true since Hossa-Kane swapped their spots mvr.Few expamples against top teams , how our lines played against best opps lines :

against Washington top line -  Toews 7-8 min, Panarin-Kruger-Hossa 5-6 min

against Edmonton top line - Toews 6 min,  Anisimov 3-4 min

against St. Louis top line - Toews 2 min, Hossa 4 min, Kruger 5 min

against Montreal top line :  Toews 1+ min , Anisimov 5+ min, Kruger 6 min

 

Edited by Modry-Jazyk

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Let's look at Xs and Os for a second. Toews is placed in front of the net on the PP. If he's to score more, he can't be there. How do you get assists standing in front of the net? He needs puck possession to to be successful, you can not be very successful in front of the net, hence we miss Shaw. He needs to patrol down low, and the wing on the PP to get more points. The Hawks in general need to utilize their speed on the PP and cycle bodies where guys like Toews can get more looks from different angles and utilize his skill. So I'd say it's more on the coaches than anything. But the teams winning and I'm sure both Toews and the coaches are content!!!

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Modry-Jazyk said on 2 minutes ago:

 

it's not true anymore mvr.Few expamples against top teams , how our lines played against best opps lines :

against Washington top line -  Toews 7-8 min, Panarin-Kruger-Hossa 5-6 min

against Edmonton top line - Toews 6 min,  Anisimov 3-4 min

against St. Louis top line - Toews 2 min, Hossa 4 min, Kruger 5 min

against Montreal top line :  Toews 1+ min , Anisimov 5+ min, Kruger 6 min

 

You are the man with the stats.  Mr. Stat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Big-T said on Just now:

Let's look at Xs and Os for a second. Toews is placed in front of the net on the PP. If he's to score more, he can't be there. How do you get assists standing in front of the net? He needs puck possession to to be successful, you can not be very successful in front of the net, hence we miss Shaw. He needs to patrol down low, and the wing on the PP to get more points. The Hawks in general need to utilize their speed on the PP and cycle bodies where guys like Toews can get more looks from different angles and utilize his skill. So I'd say it's more on the coaches than anything. But the teams winning and I'm sure both Toews and the coaches are content!!!

Doesn't Toews have his opportunity for puck possession when he is playing 5 on 5?  If so, then why not much scoring 5 on 5? 

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jacksalmon said on 28 minutes ago:

Doesn't Toews have his opportunity for puck possession when he is playing 5 on 5?  If so, then why not much scoring 5 on 5? 

Again, his role is to shut down the opposition. He's out there for every faceoff he can handle, why? It's not to score goals, but to prevent them. He's handling the oppositions top lines. Q is getting Toews in the way so the 2nd line can do the scoring. Basically he's sacrificing Toews line to get Panera's line some good looks when their out there. Toews does score 5 on 5, but not as much if Q switched Toews to the 2nd line, and got him away from the other teams top lines, especially dmen. If this isn't the answer, then why does everyone on Toews line seem to go into a scoring funk? Plain and simple, we have no depth, and Toews is taking on a ton of defensive roles, rather than scoring!!!

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