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1/26 Hawks vs Jets

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hsbob said on 1 hour ago:

Love ya yoop but you and a few others rarely have much good to say about the team you support and I find that unusual. I loved Sharp when he was here too but the Hawks traded an aging,often injured player with diminishing skills who was due 5.9M for two more. I believe 20gls last year,much of it with Benn and Seguin show those diminishing skills and this year has proven to be another often injured one for an aging player.

The GT situation in Dallas is a little messy to say the least and a conference winner blowing up their D-core gives me pause when I consider the job Nill's done down there,can you honestly say the Stars are headed in the right direction?

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!! 

 

If Dallas misses the playoffs, Jim NIll is going to have to answer for that.

He's done a horrible job and for all the hand-wringing about "stealing" Stephen Johns, he's been a healthy scratch at times.

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jacksalmon said on 9 hours ago:

Whether it is not paying enough to keep players around; or paying too much and losing the ability to put good support on the ice, the GM's job is not easy.  I am not going to debate whether Toews and Kane should have gotten the contracts they got, but since they did, there is no denying that they came with a big cost to the team.  That cost is the inability to pay better support players and the need to jettison those who were already here ala Shaw. 

So, it is not as cut and dried and some may like it to be.  Sure it is nice to reward any good player for work well done, but, at the same time, a GM has to do what is right for the team's future performance.  So, there is a balancing act to be accomplished.  That is not to say that paying Toews, Kane, Seabrook, Keith and Crawford what they got necessarily meant that the Hawks will never win another Cup because there is not enough money to go around for good support.  But, it could mean  that and it was a gamble that Bowman took when he gave out those contracts.  It was reasonable to expect that the future performances of those players might be able to overcome any deficiencies in the poorer quality support that made up the rest of the team, but, it is not guaranteed to work that way.  But, I guess Bowman thought he could pull it off.  He and the stars might do it yet.  Didn't work last year, but we'll see what happens this year. 

 

Great post!  You are correct that it is not an easy job and their is not silver bullet way to do it...in any era.  

Even without a cap, I do believe the same challenges would be in play about a players' worth and impact to the team.  Back without the cap, the want to "pay the players" to keep them would still have had an impact on the whole as teams still had budgets since money flow is not going to be limitless.  That, large contracts back then would still lead to the need to use lesser paid players to fill in the roster.   The cap just brought that practice and need to the forefront for fans.

Basically, my tongue in cheek comment I made in the post above.

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MERPER said on 6 hours ago:

 

After last season, I truly believe this is the direction based on the actions....and I hope that is true, because trying to go all in during the mid-late 90's is what made the early to mid 2000's...

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Puckjim said on 3 hours ago:

If Dallas misses the playoffs, Jim NIll is going to have to answer for that.

He's done a horrible job and for all the hand-wringing about "stealing" Stephen Johns, he's been a healthy scratch at times.

Ive stated many times about Johns that he's a borderline NHLer, Nill has done a good job. That team, many don't realize how bad of shape it was in when he got there. He's added some nice pieces, but I think they overachieved and most think they've taken a step back, but they're really showing where they're at. They need depth, injuries have crushed them. I think they'll get it right!!!

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Big-T said on 49 minutes ago:

Ive stated many times about Johns that he's a borderline NHLer, Nill has done a good job. That team, many don't realize how bad of shape it was in when he got there. He's added some nice pieces, but I think they overachieved and most think they've taken a step back, but they're really showing where they're at. They need depth, injuries have crushed them. I think they'll get it right!!!

They're old and expensive. 

I'm not sure Nill lasts long enough to get it right. 

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Biscuit_In_The_Basket said on 3 hours ago:

 

Great post!  You are correct that it is not an easy job and their is not silver bullet way to do it...in any era.  

Even without a cap, I do believe the same challenges would be in play about a players' worth and impact to the team.  Back without the cap, the want to "pay the players" to keep them would still have had an impact on the whole as teams still had budgets since money flow is not going to be limitless.  That, large contracts back then would still lead to the need to use lesser paid players to fill in the roster.   The cap just brought that practice and need to the forefront for fans.

Basically, my tongue in cheek comment I made in the post above.

I think I can describe the goal of a GM in the abstract, but that does not make doing ii in reality any easier.  Seems to me that the GM's job is to know what is the max amount to pay to retain a player to allow for flexibility in maintaining good players at support levels.  If the player is not going to sign for that max amount, then GM's job is to trade that player for the max amount of return in either players; salary relief or saved salary.  In the case of the latter two, then the GM can go out and get other players to fill the gap. 

Because he is dealing with players that are human, it is difficult to be certain of how players will perform in the future.  For example, without being critical of any involved in my example, after Bowman made his moves at the trade deadline last year, how was he to know that, between them, Toews and Kane would only get one goal in the Blues series. 

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Biscuit_In_The_Basket said on 6 hours ago:

 

After last season, I truly believe this is the direction based on the actions....and I hope that is true, because trying to go all in during the mid-late 90's is what made the early to mid 2000's...

Does this core have enough time left to wait for some younger players to develop?

Keith and Seabs are in their 30s, Kane and Toews are pushing 30

i see the point that even with a few deadline additions that they still might not be deep enough, but if we are deeper in a few years, will the core, or whats left of them by then, still have enough in the tank to win a Cup?

I wouldnt want to be a GM, thats a tough question to answer..

I always think you should go for it now, never know what the future holds.

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Big-T said on 11 hours ago:

That's how I feel also. Take the year or two to get back to a spot where the team is deep and can contend for another 3 years. After that it may be time to head in another direction. But that's 4-5 years out. For now, it's best to groom the young kids, and whatever happens this year, happens. Let them gel and build the farm back up,  if this current pace of depleting the farm and not getting much in return keeps up, the Hawks will be drafting 1st overall very very soon!!!

 

I think a number of these kids have shown flashes they can be quality role players going forward. Hartman for sure. Hinostroza a bit. Schmaltz has considerable talent.

Let them grow into quality contributors. I don't think trading them away and needing to go with different rookies again next year and the year after, in order to get a Landeskog or something, is worth it.

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Biscuit_In_The_Basket said on 8 hours ago:

 

After last season, I truly believe this is the direction based on the actions....and I hope that is true, because trying to go all in during the mid-late 90's is what made the early to mid 2000's...

 

even I, as down as I get with them sometimes, would be fine if Bowman stood pat this year...

as the article says, a year or 2 away from legit Cup contention isn't the worst thing ever. 

If the young talent here now continues to grow and more draft picks load the system (rely on the great scouting the franchise has) then, as the article says, they should be ready to try winning 2-3 cups over a 5-6 year window again come 2018-19 I'd think.

The core is in place. Now imagine the 3rd/4th lines comprised of motte/hinostroza/hartman/schmaltz/rasmussen/debrincat/etc. as they are more experienced and stronger physically and mentally.

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JMO, Bowman takes a lot of heat because he has so much tied up in Toews and Kane....but it can also be rightfully argued that you get what you pay for...except sometimes.......you don't.

Look at St. Louis.....they are paying almost 4 million more than Chicago for their forwards and nearly 2 million more for their D-men. Sure, they have a more cap-friendly situation in net. But then again they embarked on their latest road trip without their #1 goalie, and the only thing injured on him is his ego.

We can talk about Jim Nill,,,,,but they are paying about 2.5 less for their forwards. And as hsbob pointed out they blew up their d-corp. Chicago pays over 20 million for defense, Dallas is near the bottom at less than 12 million. They went cheap and it shows. On top of that,  Dallas is the only team in the league paying more than 10 million for goaltending. Between the D and the play in net, they are getting next to nothing on that investment. 

Even a hot team like Columbus is going to be looking at some serious problems all too soon when the kids that are making them look like contenders come due. 

 

 

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jacksalmon said on On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 6:45 PM:

I thought I posted my response to your questions, but when I looked I could not find it, so, hopefully, this response is not posted twice.  I can't answer your question because I don't know anything about the salary cap situations of either the Kings or Bruins. 

But, the Hawks had several stars----Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Keith and Crawford about whom they had to make a choice.  Either pay them what they wanted and have lesser quality support with them; or trade them for other good players.  They Hawks chose the former. Yet, there was a downside to doing that and that downside is that they have poorer quality support for teammates. 

Will they be able to win the Cup with the stars and poorer quality support?  I don't know and that is the experiment they are conducting.  How will it turn out?  I don't know, but, right now, it is not looking like this team will win the Cup.  Yet, everything may turn out well.  We'll see. 

The NHL is not the NBA.  In the latter, one team can win with 2 to 3 stars because they play 40 minutes per game and can dominate.  That does not work in the NHL and good support is more important to winning in the NHL than it is in the NBA.  Do the Hawks have enough support?  Are their stars going to have such excellent seasons that they can get by with lesser support?  I don't know the answer to either question, but I guess we'll see come playoff time because I know they won't be playing games with less effort because they are only regular season games.  I expect that each player will be playing hard in all those games.  Will it be enough?  I haven't a clue.  Last year playing hard was not good enough, especially for Toews and Kane against the Blues, but each year is different, so we'll see. 

jack,my only intention in drawing comparisons between the Hawks and other recent multiple cup winners like LA or teams like Boston who won one and saw another finals appearance shortly afterward are to point out the ramifications of success on the teams that had that success. I think pointing to good,young teams 'on the come' like Fla and the Bolts having big problems and more established teams like StL and Dallas who both had a pretty good taste last year,having some problems themselves so far shows how difficult and fragile this can be.

Boston traded Seguin,LA lost their best PO player in Justin Williams and the Blues let their GT who finally got em past Chicago walk,these can be seen as massive mistakes or just decisions these teams felt they HAD to make at the time..........this is tuff stuff my friend!

How much of a difference the Wild and Jacket's regular season play will have when their character is tested in a long run is yet to be seen but they both have very good GT's.

The Caps are good every regular season but they should be hungry to finally prove something and also have very good goaltending.

The Pens look just plain scary but we'll have to see if their youngsters can duplicate last year's PO performance and we'll also have to see what effect consecutive deep runs have on their great players now that they're 30 years old.

IMHO,the Hawks have some issues to address in order to have a deep run themselves and there's two month left to do it...........either way,I'm along for the ride because it's been a dam good one!

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!   

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hsbob said on 3 hours ago:

jack,my only intention in drawing comparisons between the Hawks and other recent multiple cup winners like LA or teams like Boston who won one and saw another finals appearance shortly afterward are to point out the ramifications of success on the teams that had that success. I think pointing to good,young teams 'on the come' like Fla and the Bolts having big problems and more established teams like StL and Dallas who both had a pretty good taste last year,having some problems themselves so far shows how difficult and fragile this can be.

Boston traded Seguin,LA lost their best PO player in Justin Williams and the Blues let their GT who finally got em past Chicago walk,these can be seen as massive mistakes or just decisions these teams felt they HAD to make at the time..........this is tuff stuff my friend!

How much of a difference the Wild and Jacket's regular season play will have when their character is tested in a long run is yet to be seen but they both have very good GT's.

The Caps are good every regular season but they should be hungry to finally prove something and also have very good goaltending.

The Pens look just plain scary but we'll have to see if their youngsters can duplicate last year's PO performance and we'll also have to see what effect consecutive deep runs have on their great players now that they're 30 years old.

IMHO,the Hawks have some issues to address in order to have a deep run themselves and there's two month left to do it...........either way,I'm along for the ride because it's been a dam good one!

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!   

Bob:  I don't think there is any doubt that what the Hawks had in 2010 was one of the best collections of players the game has seen.  It is too damn bad that the salary cap ruined the fans' chances of seeing that team dominate hockey for awhile.  By the way, I hate the cap. 

I think the reason the Hawks have continued to win Cups and be a factor in all Cup runs is because that group was so good; and even after being shredded they continued because of that as enough quality was left after each shredding.  But, now, it appears they have reached a point where those players are either going to have to make it on their own along with the newcomers; or fade away into being the new Detroit Red Wings and make the playoffs, but never win the Cup. 

I agree with everything you say above.  The big puzzle for me about this team besides the uncertainty of how well the young ones will play in the playoffs is how much are the vets saving themselves for the playoffs.  Losses to the Bolts and Jets like the last two shouldn't have happened, but if the vets are going into cruise control because they are regular season games that is fine with me as long as they have enough left to win the playoffs.  Are they crusing; or are they on the decline after many years of excellence?  I guess we will see in this year's Cup run.  To me, it could go either way and they could turn it on and win it again; or they might not.  But, i'll cheer for them all the way however far it goes. 

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jacksalmon said on 3 hours ago:

Bob:  I don't think there is any doubt that what the Hawks had in 2010 was one of the best collections of players the game has seen.  It is too damn bad that the salary cap ruined the fans' chances of seeing that team dominate hockey for awhile.  By the way, I hate the cap. 

I think the reason the Hawks have continued to win Cups and be a factor in all Cup runs is because that group was so good; and even after being shredded they continued because of that as enough quality was left after each shredding.  But, now, it appears they have reached a point where those players are either going to have to make it on their own along with the newcomers; or fade away into being the new Detroit Red Wings and make the playoffs, but never win the Cup. 

I agree with everything you say above.  The big puzzle for me about this team besides the uncertainty of how well the young ones will play in the playoffs is how much are the vets saving themselves for the playoffs.  Losses to the Bolts and Jets like the last two shouldn't have happened, but if the vets are going into cruise control because they are regular season games that is fine with me as long as they have enough left to win the playoffs.  Are they crusing; or are they on the decline after many years of excellence?  I guess we will see in this year's Cup run.  To me, it could go either way and they could turn it on and win it again; or they might not.  But, i'll cheer for them all the way however far it goes. 

Good points jack and the last two losses before the break bother me more than any regular season losses have in a long time. Everyone knows I give the team a wide berth but pukin' up late 3rd period leads is hard to live with from a veteran team and I'm lookin' for more myself......a lot more.

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!

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hsbob said on 1 hour ago:

Good points jack and the last two losses before the break bother me more than any regular season losses have in a long time. Everyone knows I give the team a wide berth but pukin' up late 3rd period leads is hard to live with from a veteran team and I'm lookin' for more myself......a lot more.

 

 

GO HAWKS!!!!!

That is especially true after I spent most of that Jets game, after the Hawk comeback to take the 3-2 lead, that they had finally solved the 2016-17 Jets' jinx.  Not to be. 

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