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Creature1958 said on 2 hours ago:

I wouldn't call it hate as much as calling them out. With those Cup wins we have seen the passion and effort that it took to win them and I don't know about you but I don't see that determination anymore. Their feet are not being held to the fire to be better and stop just going through the motions. As long as everyone can go around saying " hey these are the guys that ended the drought and won us 3 Cups" then the blame will always go toward the new players who aren't working out or to Stan for not getting the right players. The "Core" got their contracts because of their drive and effort and that is lacking today. Being content with just playing out the contract should not be accepted they need to be held accountable for their play and effort. 

perhaps hate was a strong word and I do not have a problem with anyone being called out. this isn't the only place I go to read about the 'hawks and believe me when I tell you there is plenty of hate for some of the core guys out there...

I agree, the motivation seems to be lacking. something has clearly been wrong with this team since the Florida trip last season. they haven't been the same since. there is obviously an issue in the lockerroom that needs to be addressed, whether it is the coach or a personality clash in the room, I do not know. but, something is certainly wrong and I'm starting to think Stan is not helping the situation. clearly, it has not been addressed.

let's see how they respond after the break to that embarrassment yesterday. 

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vadarx said on 10 minutes ago:

perhaps hate was a strong word and I do not have a problem with anyone being called out. this isn't the only place I go to read about the 'hawks and believe me when I tell you there is plenty of hate for some of the core guys out there...

I agree, the motivation seems to be lacking. something has clearly been wrong with this team since the Florida trip last season. they haven't been the same since. there is obviously an issue in the lockerroom that needs to be addressed, whether it is the coach or a personality clash in the room, I do not know. but, something is certainly wrong and I'm starting to think Stan is not helping the situation. clearly, it has not been addressed.

let's see how they respond after the break to that embarrassment yesterday. 

This organization is a business and with all businesses that become successful there is a lull in that success. Why? They become complacent. Rocky and McD are ghosts from what they were a few years ago trying to make this organization successful. Hell they are hardly on the sports news today. They still feel like they are on top and it's only the light switch that needs to be flipped to get them back there. That thinking needs to stop because the only time a successful business turns around is when the competition takes that success away while they were patting themselves on the back for a job well done. Yes there is a problem and that starts at the top and the top is letting it happen and it's showing on the ice.

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There are two competing narratives here.

On the one hand are those who believe the star players lack motivation and interest.   These people believe that the coach has lost the room, and the core players are dogging it primarily because of their guaranteed contracts.   They push for big changes in the dressing room, citing a lack of team leadership as the main cause of the decline.

On the other hand are those who believe the team lacks talent and/or experience.   These people believe the general manager/and/or the salary cap is the main problem here. Bowman has traded away too much talent and not assembled the right mix in return.  The team is adjusting through a period of too much roster turmoil.    

I'm strongly on the second side.   Sure, the  core players occasionally do not put forward maximum effort, but this does not happen very often.   They are trying, but they are very frustrated.  I do not blame them.   The star players are getting older, and they can't do what they used to be able to do easily.   They do not see much hope to compete seriously given the lack of talent on the roster.    There is only so much they can do if the kids aren't all pulling in the right direction. 

With very young teams (and the Hawks fall into this category these days), the big problem tends to be confidence and consistency.    

One day the kids feel indestructible.   The next, they question whether they even belong in the league.  

We have seen this pattern before, especially during the Trent Yawney coached years.   Coach Quenneville is bringing along several young kids at once, and most of them have progressed very well in a short time period.

This team will get better if Bowman leaves it alone.    We need a centre (though Kampf might work out on the third line).   And we need one defenceman (Hjalmarsson would be ideal).

Edited by mvr

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mvr said on 5 minutes ago:

There are two competing narratives here.

On the one hand are those who believe the star players lack motivation and interest.   These people believe that the coach has lost the room, and the core players are dogging it primarily because of their guaranteed contracts.   They push for big changes in the dressing room, citing a lack of team leadership as the main cause of the decline.

On the other hand are those who believe the team lacks talent and/or experience.   These people believe the general manager/and/or the salary cap is the main problem here. Bowman has traded away too much talent and not assembled the right mix in return.  The team is adjusting through a period of too much roster turmoil.    

I'm strongly on the second side.   Sure, the  core players occasionally do not put forward maximum effort, but this does not happen very often.   They are trying, but they are very frustrated.  I do not blame them.   The star players are getting older, and they can't do what they used to be able to do easily.   They do not see much hope to compete seriously given the lack of talent on the roster.    There is only so much they can do if the kids aren't all pulling in the right direction. 

With very young teams (and the Hawks fall into this category these days), the big problem tends to be confidence and consistency.    

One day the kids feel indestructible.   The next, they question whether they even belong in the league.  

We have seen this pattern before, especially during the Trent Yawney coached years.   Coach Quenneville is bringing along several young kids at once, and most of them have progressed very well in a short time period.

This team will get better if Bowman leaves it alone.    We need a centre (though Kampf might work out on the third line).   And we need one defenceman (Hjalmarsson would be ideal).

Q needs to leave it alone also. He took D-Cat and messed up what he was doing right on the 3rd line. He just seems to work well with Sharp and Sharp would be the perfect fit as his teacher. That being said Duclair has looked OK but doesn't look right on the 3rd line and looked way out of place on the 1st for the short time there. Sharp doesn't look good on the 4th line which I thought he would but Duclair I think would fit right in there and create havoc with Bouma and Wingles. 

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galaxytrash said on 1 hour ago:

this article from The Hockey News doesn't really touch on anything new but it's a nice synopsis of the problems facing this team going forward.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/the-chicago-blackhawks-are-in-an-unenviable-spot-right-now

Read the article and my impression is that trading Sharp/Bouma is not going to help this team much, now, or in the future.  The other thought was what the hell was Bowman doing giving Seabrook that much money for so long when he was old already.  On top of that, to give him a NMClause should have gotten Bowman canned immediately.  I am still of the opinion that it is idiocy to retain all of multiple Cup winners when they are going to be beyond 30 for most of their contracts.  Keep a few, but don't keep them all.  It costs too much money and is too risky.  The money saved would be better spent on some up and comer and not rewarding a guy who did well for the team, but has little left contribute to future success. 

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galaxytrash said on 1 hour ago:

this article from The Hockey News doesn't really touch on anything new but it's a nice synopsis of the problems facing this team going forward.

http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/article/the-chicago-blackhawks-are-in-an-unenviable-spot-right-now

The problem I have is all of Stan’s draft picks are pint sized. I get the cap space isn’t a plenty at the moment, but a couple quick trades of AA and Murphy clean up a ton of space and a ton of headaches. I’m not insinuating that either is useless, just don’t fit the mold here. We need to retool, not rebuild. I know many will naysay this with nothing to add to the conversation but negativity. But the best way to fix this is to get newer primary scorers. And build the kids around them. Let our current core group fade into the background, and add in a couple free agents and sprinkle in the kids. I’d make room probably on draft day or just before, I’d trade Saad, AA, Murphy. Just didn’t work out. Factor in Hossa’s money, and the cap increase of 5 million. We have over 25 million now. I’d sign a 27 year old Tavares to 10.5, Mark Stone to 7.5. And hopefully get a dman as part of one of those trades. Once again, I still say we go big or just let the team die a slow awful death. There is not quick way to rebuild with that much money on the cap. Might as well go for it and rebuild when the time is right. We do not and will not have the proper picks until we’re last again. This team is only bad enough to be stuck in the middle, where the picks will be mediocre. I welcome anyone else’s way of fixing this. This is my way, I believe this is the right way. Two great young top six is what we need so others can be slotted properly!!!

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Big-T said on 52 minutes ago:

The problem I have is all of Stan’s draft picks are pint sized. I get the cap space isn’t a plenty at the moment, but a couple quick trades of AA and Murphy clean up a ton of space and a ton of headaches. I’m not insinuating that either is useless, just don’t fit the mold here. We need to retool, not rebuild. I know many will naysay this with nothing to add to the conversation but negativity. But the best way to fix this is to get newer primary scorers. And build the kids around them. Let our current core group fade into the background, and add in a couple free agents and sprinkle in the kids. I’d make room probably on draft day or just before, I’d trade Saad, AA, Murphy. Just didn’t work out. Factor in Hossa’s money, and the cap increase of 5 million. We have over 25 million now. I’d sign a 27 year old Tavares to 10.5, Mark Stone to 7.5. And hopefully get a dman as part of one of those trades. Once again, I still say we go big or just let the team die a slow awful death. There is not quick way to rebuild with that much money on the cap. Might as well go for it and rebuild when the time is right. We do not and will not have the proper picks until we’re last again. This team is only bad enough to be stuck in the middle, where the picks will be mediocre. I welcome anyone else’s way of fixing this. This is my way, I believe this is the right way. Two great young top six is what we need so others can be slotted properly!!!

T do you have any info that Tavares is unhappy with Isles and won't resign; or do you just think he would jump at the chance to play with Kane and Toews.  Also, why would the Sens let Stone go?  They need all the scoring help they can get. 

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jacksalmon said on 19 minutes ago:

T do you have any info that Tavares is unhappy with Isles and won't resign; or do you just think he would jump at the chance to play with Kane and Toews.  Also, why would the Sens let Stone go?  They need all the scoring help they can get. 

Regarding Tavares. I have zero insight on as to whether or not he re-signs. History tells us that 99% of guys who go to free agency, leave. I’d have to think that if he’s not signed yet, he’s probably out. That team has done nothing to make themselves better, always the same old same old. I think he leaves. I’ve heard him speak very highly of Toews and they were roommates at the last World Cup. He said it was unreal to play with Toews. Now that could mean absolutely nothing, but I believe he signs elsewhere, and I could see St.Louis snagging him and winning a Cup, then killing us for the next 5-6 years. 

As for Stone, he’s also a UFA and has not signed. I doubt he stays in that ”shthole” team. If Tavares were to sign here. And I was Stone, I’d be thinking yes yes and more yes if the Hawks included me in on that. The cap is going up, maybe even up 7 million. So there’ll be money to play with. We need hungrier guys, and Saad AA do not look like the guys that want to win it all. So why watch the team get stuck in the middle, and become Minnesota, with some aging vets and youth that never really seems to be there when you need them. Or you can reload, and do it right, we owe it to Toews and Kane to ice the best team possible. If the kids don’t get it by year 3, they gotta go, and it’s nearing that now for a few of them!!! 

Edited by Big-T

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Big-T said on 1 hour ago:

Regarding Tavares. I have zero insight on as to whether or not he re-signs. History tells us that 99% of guys who go to free agency, leave. I’d have to think that if he’s not signed yet, he’s probably out. That team has done nothing to make themselves better, always the same old same old. I think he leaves. I’ve heard him speak very highly of Toews and they were roommates at the last World Cup. He said it was unreal to play with Toews. Now that could mean absolutely nothing, but I believe he signs elsewhere, and I could see St.Louis snagging him and winning a Cup, then killing us for the next 5-6 years. 

As for Stone, he’s also a UFA and has not signed. I doubt he stays in that ”shthole” team. If Tavares were to sign here. And I was Stone, I’d be thinking yes yes and more yes if the Hawks included me in on that. The cap is going up, maybe even up 7 million. So there’ll be money to play with. We need hungrier guys, and Saad AA do not look like the guys that want to win it all. So why watch the team get stuck in the middle, and become Minnesota, with some aging vets and youth that never really seems to be there when you need them. Or you can reload, and do it right, we owe it to Toews and Kane to ice the best team possible. If the kids don’t get it by year 3, they gotta go, and it’s nearing that now for a few of them!!! 

I'm sold on your plan, both the acquisitions and dump offs.  The only addition I would make, if it panned out, was to consider dealing Toews, although that might make Tavares go away.  If that was the case, then I'd keep Toews.  But, they might be stuck with him anyway. 

By the way, Tavares must have known we were writing about him.  He scored two tonight, including the OT winner.  Your mention of him going to Blues, in a way makes more sense for him, as I think they are a stronger team than the Hawks and are more likely to win him a Cup than the Hawks. 

Edited by jacksalmon

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I doubt any player from another team looks at the hawks as a destination because Toews plays here. Maybe five years ago it might be a consideration but he’s a liability now and the whole league knows it.

the hawks are stuck with bowman bringing in mediocre players and hoping something fits which is unlikely atbest. Fire bowman and let someone else take the reins. At this point anybody and everybody is a candidate to trade.

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Big-T:

I don't think adding any big names will right this ship at this stage.

When you add big contracts, you have to subtract from elsewhere.    Adding Tavares but subtracting Saad/Anisimov is basically a net zero gain overall.    Tavares has almost certainly already played his best season.   So has any other UFA forward (27 years old or older) which is why I would never spend money on these types of players.   Save the money for the home-grown talent.

I don't want any more trades of core players (too much damage has already been done), and I don't want any big name free agent signings.   This is the Toronto Maple Leaf/New York Ranger approach,   It rarely works  in this sport.

The better move would be to hold back for a couple of years on spending big money.   Keep the core talent and build a better support system around it.

Continue to comb the college and European free agent market (as Bowman is doing) and look for untapped talent (ie Rutta/Kampf).  

Be aggressive on the trade and waiver wire front, and be prepared to move excess prospects for assets you need, taking advantage of the surplus cap and budget space.  This team has far too many small, skilled perimeter types.   They lack players with size both now and in the system.   Why is the general manager hoarding shrimps like Debrincat, Hinostroza, Soderlund and Dylan Sikura?   Why is the team not moving to the excess on defence (Kempny, Pokka, Gustafsson, Franson) for picks/prospects?

This reload does not have to take that long.   But the general manager needs to be much more aggressive and experimental.   I think we need a new guy doing the job.   

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